Divine (Im)Morality

Writing out some of the theological questions that have been on my mind lately and discussing them with Xuchilpaba has been pretty productive in terms of inspiring me to start pulling together some of my thoughts into a semi-coherent form. As per my promise to share some of my own theological musings, today’s post is a piece on the issue of divine (im)morality — are the gods Good or Evil, or do these terms not even apply?

As I’d mentioned before, the Teteo are depicted in myth and liturgy as both helpful and harmful. On the one hand, Tezcatlipoca wipes out the people of Tula with a series of devious tricks, tormenting His brother Quetzalcoatl in the process. On the other hand, Huitzilopochtli is shown fiercely protecting His people against all danger as the young, vulnerable Mexica tribe migrates south to the site of Tenochtitlan. In some of the surviving prayers recorded in Book 6 of the Florentine Codex, the priests beg Tezcatlipoca to calm Himself and cease punishing the people with famine and plague, and they plead with Tlaloc to have pity on the dying children and end a drought. Clearly, the gods could be either your best friends or your worst enemies, in traditional Aztec thought.

With these depictions in mind, along with the historical fact of the Conquest and the very real suffering endured by millions around the world today, it’s not hard to come to the conclusion that no, the Teteo are not “Good” gods. I capitalize the word “good” here to highlight that I’m using the term in the sense of “morally perfect and benevolent,” rather than “useful.” I’m talking Good and Evil, not good and bad, to follow Nietzsche’s key distinction established in his classic “Geneology of Morals.” I don’t think it would be unreasonable to expect Good gods to want to reduce the suffering of Their followers, to the extent that Their power would allow them to do so. I would also think that They wouldn’t indulge in unjust behavior like collective punishment, punishing a whole group for the wrongs of some of its members as one post-Conquest legend suggests the gods sent the Spaniards to destroy the Empire because of the hubris of Montezuma. If the gods aren’t Good, are They Evil?

I’d say that They don’t fit the bill as Evil in the way it’s commonly used in modern theology. Evil in this context tends to mean that the deity in question is actively malevolent and wicked, inflicting suffering unfairly and delighting in victimizing others. The Aztecs attributed many kind and benevolent acts to the gods, such as creating and re-creating humankind, providing wisdom and the arts, and sustaining the Universe as a whole. There’s even a touching scene in the myths where, shortly after He revives them in the age of the Fifth Sun, Quetzalcoatl is shown tenderly feeding the new people like they are His babies, chewing the tough corn to make it soft and carefully placing it in their mouths by hand. In the context of modern practice, I know of some Aztec Reconstructionists who have had UPG experiences of some of the gods weeping out of pity for them or otherwise expressing affection. The Aztecs exhorted their children to be “friends of the gods” in the huehuetlatolli, and it seems that the gods can reciprocate such friendliness. In the light of such traditional depictions and modern experiences, I can’t say that the Teteo are Evil, either. But if They’re not Good and They’re not Evil, then what? Are They both, or neither?

My own thoughts on the matter as they currently stand is that maybe we’re going about this all wrong with this talk of Good and Evil outside of humanity. A recurring theme throughout Nietzsche’s work is that any creator must necessarily be “immoral” in a certain sense, beyond Good and Evil. What did he mean by “immoral”? Well, a necessary part of creation is destruction, annihilating the old to make way for the new and reshaping the material into new forms. Interacting with the creation in these ways will unavoidably cause it harm and suffering if it’s capable of feeling. A creator has to be able to steel Itself against the miserable cries of the creature and avoid falling into the paralyzing snare of pity, pity that would force the creator to abandon the work because It couldn’t stomach the pain It would have to cause the subject. This softness and pity would have the awful consequences of leaving things stuck in stagnant stasis, rotting slowly rather than being destroyed to be reborn afresh and seek greater heights.

I think that this might be one way out of the Good/Evil dilemma regarding divine morality, though perhaps not a very comfortable or satisfying one, and it may not be a complete escape from the problem. If we’re working from the position that there are personal, individual gods that interact with the world in some way, then They’re almost by definition going to be operating at the level of Nietzsche’s “creator,” the individual(s) who shapes, builds, and destroys the subject material. It seems to line up well with the way the Teteo are depicted periodically wiping away the decayed old things to make way for the new, and the way that old life passes through death and is the seed for new life via the sacrificial knife. The fit is even better when we stop and remember that the traditional Aztec cosmology is truly one of Order/Chaos rather than an Abrahamic-style “Battle of Good vs. Evil.” Order and chaos have to be nudged back and forth in a delicate balancing process in order for the universe to stay healthy and survive — the very epitome of creation and destruction. Suffering in this process is an unavoidable “byproduct” of the continuing act of creation and change, and the Powers That Be simply have to be cruel to a certain extent to get anything done. Thus, They can’t exactly be Good. But there’s no particular malice, which makes a label of Evil not quite right. So it seems that the least-problematic answer is to say that the Teteo are beyond Good and Evil.

Granted, this potential answer sucks in a lot of ways. It doesn’t do jack to comfort me when I suffer or when I see innocent people and animals in pain. It doesn’t make me any less pissed off when I feel like I’ve been left twisting in the wind or see the hundredth domestic violence victim in the courtroom pleading for a protective order against an abusive spouse. It also doesn’t promise us that the gods are going to help us in any given situation, though the traditional moral exhortations of the Aztecs, the huehuetlatolli, say that it sure doesn’t hurt to ask anyway.

This potential answer is also rather relative. While in one sense the gods might be beyond Good and Evil, in another sense, down at the personal, individual human level, They could be one or the other to us. If I were a starving child and I cried out to Tlaloc for help in a drought, and nothing happened, I’d sure call Him an evil bastard right then. From a human perspective, it would make sense. If one human showed such a callous indifference to the suffering of a fellow human that he or she had the power to help, most societies would condemn that individual as inhumane. On the other hand, switching perspective to a “god’s-eye view,” it’d be kind of like calling a lion “evil” when it eats an antelope. It’s just what the lion does and has to do, a brute fact of life. If keeping the world in balance is what a god does, then, continuing the Tlaloc example, governing the global weather patterns in their delicate balance, even if it means that child starves, is simply what must be done, regardless of individual suffering.

In other words, the gods aren’t the source of human morality in the realm of Aztec Reconstuctionism, nor is there a transcendent, absolute morality that can cover both gods and man. Humans have to work out morality for themselves, and the gods have Their own business to take care of. The two worlds can intersect, but they’re not always ethically-harmonious.

In closing, I don’t expect this article to answer everyone’s questions — it doesn’t even answer all of mine. And I certainly don’t claim to be some Aztec Recon pagan pope or prophet. This is just Cehualli’s (very tentative) View on this thorny, obnoxious, pain in the ass question. Take what you will from my thoughts, I hope this first step to untangling this theological knot is helpful.

~ by cehualli on June 18, 2008.

7 Responses to “Divine (Im)Morality”

  1. You are right. The gods are niether. They are dualistic, and some favor other sides more than others, but they are neither.

    I take a really funny view on good and evil. Depending on the culture’s religion, I usually take that particuralar view. But “evil” to me, takes alot before I consider something to be that way.

    >On the other hand, switching perspective to a “god’s-eye view,” it’d be kind of like calling a lion “evil” when it eats an antelope.

    Theres a reason(s) the god’s allow such suffering.

    One reason is that the gods aren’t there to wipe your ass. If they healed all your pain all the time or didn’t allow you to suffer, you’d become selfish and dependant on them. As far as the gods are concerned you are a slave. Thats one reason suffering and pain exist. Personally, I don’t blame the gods for thinking this way. If they did everything for mankind, or would always take away pain and suffering from them we’d become selfish spoiled brats. Its like raising children.

    Plus, suffering is there imo as a learning process as well.

    I hope this post helped.

  2. Nice post, as usual. Where’ve you been lately, anyhoo? Just busy? I’ve been involved in the Devil’s Internship, myself.

    I’ve been thinking long and hard about the Teteo up here in the Yosemite Valley. Things like: Is it justifiable to define a particular “personality” trait of a deity in human terms? For example, in my experience, Tlaloc is a fairly sadistic deity. He enjoys causing pain. He likes watching things go wrong. But, still, “sadistic” is a human term. Just because I see Him get enjoyment out of “bad” things to us humans, does that imply sadism?

  3. >Where’ve you been lately, anyhoo? Just busy? I’ve been involved in the Devil’s Internship, myself.

    Enjoying my two days off of TSA. For some reason, everybody with the exception of you has been giving me thesilent treatment. Yehecatl removed me from his friend’s list and won’t return my messages. Him & Shock’s blog I can only see like the first public posts, which was not so up until about a week ago. Shock is gone, so I don’t expect her to reply.

    I think the Aztecs thought of their deities in some human terms. Theres some poem somewhere where they talk about how their deities eat, drink, and etc like they do. I also think the Teteo have alot of non-human traits as well, that cannot be defined.

  4. Xuchilpaba — Thanks for your post! I agree with the need for perspective-shifting when you’re trying to answer these kinds of questions. It’s not far off from the classic question in art of “What does this *mean* — does it have only the meaning the creator gave it, or does everyone have a say in what it means?”

    I have to take issue with the “gods aren’t there to wipe your ass” statement though. I don’t think They are, and the kind of suffering I was talking about, and the kind that generally is the subject of discussions of the classic theological Problem of Evil, is *extreme, unjustified suffering.*

    I agree that it would be ridiculous to label non-omnimax gods as “evil” because They didn’t make sure you never had a bad day. But that kind of minor suffering isn’t what I’m concerned with. It’s when things like genocide or kids slowly die of cancer happen that I think humanity is justified in asking the gods “Why didn’t You help Your faithful friends and servants, even though we trusted You?” A lot of people would certainly call a human evil who had the power to stop a murder, but instead stood by and watched it happen.

    I doubt intervening in such extreme cases would result in most people becoming selfish and dependent. Rather, I think it would result in more people trusting and revering the gods.

    This kind of extreme evil I’m talking about makes the analogy of raising children not fit, at least not without opening the door to accusations of child abuse and neglect.

    As far as suffering being a learning experience, it can be, I agree, and it answers for suffering that can be constructive, but it still doesn’t solve the problem of extreme, unjustified suffering. Not to beat a dead horse, but I doubt three year old kids in cancer wards are really learning any lessons from their pain. And if the lesson is intended for their parents, then it’s still morally revolting — the child is being used as nothing more than a tool, an object. Not something I would call “good” under virtually any circumstance.

    Re: deities conceived in humanlike terms — I can think of some examples to back this up too. More than a few poems describe the gods painting, and there are plenty of myths that show Them making music, dancing, crying, and laughing. I thought it was interesting in the “Mixtecs of Colonial Oaxaca” book that Shock had recommended to me a while back on Black and Red where it discussed how the priests would basically have social time with the gods. They’d bring offerings for the Teteo, and then discuss the needs of the people, current events, etc.

    We may be running into the exact problem you brought up, but what do you have in mind when you propose that the gods have undefinable non-human traits as well? I find this intriguing.

    PS — I don’t know why you’ve been getting the silent treatment from some people, that seems just uncool. I hope I haven’t come off as doing that, my schedule just makes it that sometimes I need a couple of days to work on a proper response. I do need to get my ass back over to the forum though, I’ve been slacking there…

  5. With the one comment, thats what I was referring too. They allow that kind of suffering for a reason. Sometimes its a beneficial reason that you can’t see. Like how the black death actually saved Europe and its ecomony.

    I’ve been through alot of that kind of unjustified suffering and have a some personal UPG’s to some of the reason that its allowed. The cause is not the gods of course, whichis probaly another reason. The cause of suffering can be blamed on people or other beings that aren’t nesscerly Aztec. But I can’t really give you a general synopsis as a whole on why people suffer. Because i have no idea what the gods are thinking etc. The theological part of the arguement would have to, in this case, come from a Mexican POV. I’d have to do more research into the area before I could have a solid valid opinion on this subjec. I may look into poetry. Paticurly post conquest writings about the Teteo.

    Nah Cehualli, I understand you’re busy. :)

  6. >We may be running into the exact problem you brought up, but what do you have in mind when you propose that the gods have undefinable non-human traits as well? I find this intriguing.

    I forgot to answer this! Sorry about that. Well we have certan traits that occur in the Teteo themselves and their nahuallis that are beyond human limits. Obvious things would be like Tlaloc’s pentition for hurling lighting bolts or Quetzalcoatl/Ehecatl as the bringer of wind. (or just being a giant feathered serpent guy for example.) Theres also cases of the Teteo performing miracles of sorts, like healing people, or actually giving them mysterious powers. I know I have recieved a nahualli from Tezcatlipoca once and in my UPG I have seen gods such as Itzpapalotl, that do not think like humans do. I guess its hard to explain for me. Maybe I’ll find even better examples later. I’m not at home right noiw, at work, so my resourses are at zero.

  7. Reading the Florentine codex and seeing it first hand in my life.. The gods are vicious. Especially Tezcatlipoca. He’s probably one of the most wicked.

    Some suffering may be caused by other humans, or other supernatural forces, but it’s pretty hard to deny the Teteo’s influence when it comes to causing all kinds of suffering. Some they do as a form of punishment or to keep you in line, but I can’t help but wonder if every now & gain that the gods do it solely for their own pleasure.

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